In a series of stunning interviews, fans of former President Donald Trump told CNN’s Donie O’Sullivan that the U.S. is “not a democracy” and predicted a “civil war” if Trump loses.
O’Sullivan specializes in reporting on the fringes of the conservative and pro-Trump movement, and frequently finds himself on the receiving end of some stunning quotes.
On Thursday night’s edition of CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360, O’Sullivan rolled out his latest parade of jaw-dropping MAGA sound bites — a gaggle of Trump supporters who were happy to tell him we’re not a democracy — but had a tough time explaining the difference:
COOPER: President Biden is billing his reelection campaign as a fight to preserve democracy. Tonight, how that notion is going down with Trump supporters, as well as one noted author who’s made describing how democracies fail her specialty. More from CNN’s Donie O’Sullivan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONIE O’SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER (voice over): What happens if Trump loses?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don’t see him losing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don’t think he lost the last election, to be honest.
O’SULLIVAN: Do you think he’s going to win?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Without a doubt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No doubt.
O’SULLIVAN: What if he doesn’t this time? What happens to the country?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We’re done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We’re in trouble. We’re in big trouble.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We’re done. If Biden talks about democracy, you know, saving democracy, they’re the ones that are killing democracy.
O’SULLIVAN: Obviously, there’s a lot of criticisms of Trump that he is bad for democracy, that he’s bad for American democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I say something? We are a republic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We’re a republic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are not a democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We’re a representative of the republic. We’re not a democracy. (END VIDEO CLIP)
O’SULLIVAN (voice over): One thing we’ve been hearing at Trump rallies like this over the past few months is that America isn’t really a democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: America’s not a democracy as a republic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It’s not a democracy. Okay? Democracy is actually not as good as you think it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O’SULLIVAN (voice over): But for centuries, America has celebrated its democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Democracy is worth dying for.
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Democracy remains the definition of political legitimacy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O’SULLIVAN (voice over): But some Republicans and pro-Trump media are pushing the idea that America is not a democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The United States of America is not a democracy. We are a constitutional republic.
JOHNSON: The United States of America is not a democracy. You don’t want to be in a democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not a democracy. We are a republic.
O’SULLIVAN (on camera): Is America a democracy?
ANNE APPLEBAUM, AUTHOR, “AUTOCRACY, INC.”: America is a democracy. It was founded as a democracy.
O’SULLIVAN: I’ve heard a lot of conspiracy theories. I hear a lot of things out on the road. But to hear Americans, people who would describe themselves as patriots, say that America is not a democracy, that stopped me in my tracks.
APPLEBAUM: You are hearing people say America is not a democracy because there are people around Trump who want them to be saying that, who’ve been planting that narrative.
O’SULLIVAN: Is America a democracy? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I don’t – I think we’re a republic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, not right now. But we’re – yes, we’re a republic.
O’SULLIVAN: What’s the difference?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like democracy – I think this is true, that it’s government control. I don’t see freedom in democracy. I see freedom in the republic.
APPLEBAUM: Honestly, the word democracy and the word republic have often been used interchangeably. There isn’t a meaningful difference between them.
O’SULLIVAN: So much of the warnings and criticism about Trump is that he is a threat to democracy, that he is anti-Democratic.
APPLEBAUM: Absolutely. If they can convince people that we don’t have a democracy, then it’s okay that Trump is attacking democracy, because it doesn’t really matter.
O’SULLIVAN: So why – like, why has democracy become a bad word?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it’s being used in a way to change the flavor of our country, which is a republic.
APPLEBAUM: These words were used in different ways in the 18th century and it’s true the founders didn’t want direct democracy, by which they meant people gathering on the town square, they wanted representative democracy.
But I think the reason why this conversation about language has risen now is because there is a part of the Republican Party that would like to rule as a minority, and they need an excuse for why that’s okay. And so they have begun to say, we’re not a democracy, we’re a republic. And it’s not a hundred percent clear what that means, but I think they mean, we want Donald Trump to be able to do whatever he wants.
O’SULLIVAN: Some people I’ve been speaking to at Trump events recently …
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
O’SULLIVAN: … have been saying, America is not a democracy, it’s a republic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We’ve always been a democracy, first of all,
O’SULLIVAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, we have – we used to have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, we used to have that too, now they’re picking on the Christians and the Jewish people. I mean, how much more can we take?
O’SULLIVAN: Are you concerned if Trump loses …
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
O’SULLIVAN: … that there will be another January 6th?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I think there will be a civil war. That’s what I think will happen.
